DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

That is FRESH AIR. I am Dave Davies in at this time for Terry Gross. Our visitor, Matthieu Aikins, is a Canadian-born journalist who has reported on Afghanistan and the Center East since 2008. He was in Afghanistan from June by means of November final 12 months, masking the chaotic withdrawal of American forces and its aftermath. He had the lead byline for The New York Instances story, reporting that the drone strike in Kabul, which U.S. navy officers claimed had taken out a automobile bomb threatening American troops, was, in truth, mistakenly focused at an help employee, killing him and 9 others, together with seven youngsters.

For his first guide, Aikins tells the story of becoming a member of his long-time Afghan interpreter and driver in his 2016 journey to flee the nation alongside smugglers’ routes and attain Europe. To accompany his pal, Aikins needed to ditch his personal identification and passport and assume the function of an Afghan refugee. Aikins says his ethnic background makes him look uncannily Afghan. The expertise gave Aikins an intimate have a look at a number of the Afghans, Syrians and others risking the whole lot to begin new lives by means of this huge motion of humanity. The guide is a narrative of powerful decisions and, at occasions, harrowing experiences trekking over land and sea.

Matthieu Aikins is a contributing author for The New York Instances and a contributing editor at Rolling Stone. His reporting has received quite a few honors, together with the George Polk and Livingston Awards. His new guide is “The Bare Do not Worry The Water: An Underground Journey With Afghan Refugees.”

Matthieu Aikins, welcome again to FRESH AIR. Let’s begin with a studying from the guide. It is a second that I’ve requested you to share with us. It’s going to give us a way of the writing and one of many extra troubling moments that you just encountered on this lengthy journey. You wish to simply arrange what’s taking place right here?

MATTHIEU AIKINS: Yeah, certain. My pleasure. I imply, it is a second within the narrative the place my pal Omar and I’ve lastly made it to Turkey after varied trials and tribulations crossing borders. And Omar’s discovered a smuggler who’s going to ship us to the Greek islands on certainly one of these little rubber boats that cross the Mediterranean at night time. So we’re despatched to a secure home within the coastal metropolis of Izmir. After which at night time, we’re all of the sudden taken out, delivered to a van. We are the first ones in, however fairly quickly, all these different migrants, Syrians, begin piling within the van or crammed on the again. And we set off on the freeway. We do not actually know the place we’re going, nevertheless it’s fairly clear we do not have management of the state of affairs anymore. After which the van stops, pulls over. There’s some type of drawback with the escort automobile. And the driving force does not actually wish to be hanging out with a bunch of unlawful immigrants behind his van, so he takes off. And we’re left there, ready.

DAVIES: And that is the studying.

AIKINS: (Studying) The van quickly grew stiflingly sizzling. The Syrians whispered to 1 one other at the hours of darkness. My joints have been throbbing, and my neighbor’s skinny limbs pressed into my kidneys. I felt the wave of nausea and closed my eyes. As a child, I used to have nightmares of being trapped in a darkish area stuffed with strain and warmth, like the middle of the Earth. Again once I was planning this journey, I examine 71 migrants who had suffocated in a meat truck in Austria that previous summer season and promised myself to by no means get right into a state of affairs like that. Now I considered what the person in Nimruz had informed us – brother, we’re like a soccer being kicked up the sector. There was a way of vertigo in handing your self over to criminals – no recourse, authorized or ethical, for what befell you. The blame, moderately, for placing your self there within the first place.

DAVIES: And that’s journalist Matthew Aikins studying from his new guide, “The Bare Do not Worry The Water: An Underground Journey Of Afghan Refugees.” Yeah, placing your self within the arms of criminals many occasions over the course of this journey. The person that you just took this journey with, whom you name Omar – simply inform us a bit about him and your relationship.

AIKINS: Omar was one of many first buddies that I made in Afghanistan, not that lengthy after I acquired there in late 2008, and we labored on a narrative collectively. He was a former interpreter with the U.S. navy and Canadian navy who now wished to begin working with journalists. He had grown up as a refugee in Iran and Pakistan. You realize, his dad and mom fled the Soviet invasion. And he had returned, together with tens of millions of different Afghans, to his nation, you understand, shortly after 2001, believing on this vibrant new period of hope and democracy, that the West was going to assist rebuild their nation, that peace would come to Afghanistan after so many many years of struggle. And so we spent various years – once I was residing in Kabul, we noticed one another rather a lot and have become very shut. I acquired to know his household, as effectively.

DAVIES: Proper. And we have heard rather a lot about Afghan refugees in latest months. This was, you understand, 5 years earlier than the American withdrawal – 2016. Why did he wish to depart?

AIKINS: Effectively, it was already clear by then that issues weren’t going effectively, that the foreigners would ultimately depart and that the Afghan authorities was, you understand, turning into an increasing number of dysfunctional and corrupt. The Taliban have been on the march within the countryside. The Taliban briefly captured a provincial capital on the finish of 2015. So there’s that, and there is additionally the truth that Omar – you understand, since he was a child, he had dreamed of emigrating to the West. He used to look at a Canadian tv present on – when he was a child in Iran. And he had truly utilized for a visa to to migrate right here. He ought to have been eligible below this Particular Immigrant Visa program for former Afghan and Iraqi workers of the U.S. authorities, however he was rejected as a result of he did not have all of the paperwork. So after that occurred, he determined to take the smugglers’ street to Europe.

DAVIES: Proper. And he actually would have certified. I imply, he had carried out translating for coalition forces. He’d seen fight. He – however they wished a variety of documentation that folks, after they’re in motion, do not assume to gather. So that you determined you’ll go collectively and report on this, which meant you’ll be touring as an Afghan. However, in fact, you’re, in truth, a Westerner. You are Canadian-born. What benefits or dangers did that pose to the 2 of you, that you just have been there type of wanting like an Afghan refugee, however actually a Western journalist?

AIKINS: Yeah. Effectively, it was the one method that I may do it as a result of, you understand, if I had my passport on me and we have been caught by thieves or, you understand, might be kidnapped or the police would separate us. So there was no different technique to do it. I feel that it most likely added some dangers, nevertheless it additionally meant that we have been touring collectively. We may, you understand, deal with one another. And, in fact, if one thing actually severe did occur, you understand, I used to be going to do the whole lot I may to assist him.

DAVIES: You realize, so that you can move as an Afghan, you needed to look believable. And as I discussed within the introduction, due to your ethnic background – I feel your mom is of Japanese descent – you type of have the pores and skin shade of an Afghan. So that you look the half. However you’ve got additionally acquired to sound the half. And also you communicate Dari – proper? – which is among the main languages within the nation. You have been fluent sufficient to move as a local?

AIKINS: You realize, ultimately, it turned out that I used to be. I imply, I had been learning the language for years and practiced rather a lot forward of this journey, repeating myself. It helps additionally that Afghanistan has so many alternative languages and dialects, accents, individuals who’ve lived overseas as refugees and are available again. And, you understand, additionally if you’re on the street in these smugglers’ secure homes or within the camps, everybody’s type of hiding one thing. So individuals do not pry and ask too many questions, even when possibly they assume one thing’s a bit of off.

DAVIES: You would want some huge cash, each only for touring and residing bills and to pay smugglers, who usually are not low-cost. The place did the cash come from? How did you conceal it?

AIKINS: Effectively, the cash got here from the guide advance. And there is a system for transferring cash that Afghans use. It is known as Hawala or saraf. And so you may truly simply depart all of your cash along with your mom in Kabul, after which she will go to cash changers and have it despatched to varied spots alongside the route. And it is certainly one of these many ingenious methods that migrants use that we found in the middle of this guide.

DAVIES: As you start this journey, there’s an fascinating piece of historic context right here. You realize, there have been a lot of locations within the Center East and South Asia the place massive numbers of individuals wished to flee. I imply, big numbers of refugees from Syria and Afghanistan all headed to Europe and different locations, too. It – the journey was, you understand, dangerous, unlawful, tough however for this exceptional improvement in 2015 when issues all of the sudden modified. Do you wish to describe this?

AIKINS: Yeah. I imply, within the guide, I name it a miracle. The border opened, this iron wall that, you understand, had separated Europe from all these individuals who’ve been type of piling up at its borders – proper? And Turkey had the most important refugee inhabitants on the earth that point, principally Syrians displaced. After which in late – the summer season to late 2015, the dam type of broke. Folks began crossing in numbers that could not be prevented with out, you understand, excessive drive towards helpless, unarmed individuals.

So to be able to stop a complete breakdown of the European Union’s border system, Germany and another nations allowed this humanitarian hall to open by means of the Balkans. So individuals have been simply strolling in, you understand, to Europe principally. You could possibly land on the Greek islands, you could possibly journey safely in buses and trains, you understand, comparatively talking, to get to the place you wished to go and – so a complete suspension of the conventional state of affairs.

DAVIES: Yeah, you mentioned one million individuals reached Europe by sea throughout this motion, the most important motion of refugees throughout waters in historical past. By the point Omar determined he was going to go, he had some private issues that delayed him. Issues had modified. How did they modify?

AIKINS: Effectively, the border had slammed shut once more. The European Union, you understand, at the same time as there was all this rhetoric about welcoming refugees, was busily placing up barbed wire fences, border limitations, creating new, you understand, camps to detain individuals and paying off nations like Turkey to maintain migrants from getting there within the first place. So by the point we arrived on the scene, you understand, in the summertime of 2016, we very a lot confronted a newly defended Europe, you understand, a brand new and improved, in some ways, in its effectivity border equipment.

DAVIES: So all these Greek cities and islands, which have been welcoming these refugees, now took a distinct perspective, proper? There have been (laughter) Turkish and Greek patrols and patrols funded by the European Union to try to ship individuals again, proper?

AIKINS: The temper had positively modified. And it is tough. You have got some sympathy for particularly the Greek islanders who’re being made accountable for this disaster that has, you understand, to do with a complete continent, and their islands are being become open-air prisons, principally, for migrants. Nevertheless it was fairly an unsightly scene on the bottom.

DAVIES: Let me reintroduce you. We will take a bit of break right here. We’re talking with Matthieu Aikins. He is been reporting on Afghanistan and the Center East since 2008. His new guide is “The Bare Do not Worry The Water: An Underground Journey With Afghan Refugees.” We’ll proceed our dialog after this brief break. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MATT ULERY’S “GAVE PROOF”)

DAVIES: That is FRESH AIR, and my visitor is journalist Matthieu Aikins. He is reported for a few years on Afghanistan and the Center East. His new guide is about becoming a member of his longtime Afghan interpreter in that interpreter’s effort to flee the nation alongside smugglers’ routes to Europe. The identify of the guide is “The Bare Do not Worry The Water.”

Proper, so Omar, he – it is a pseudonym. You’ve got – defending his identification for causes which can be fairly clear. Omar decides he is acquired to get to Turkey first after which, from there, make his technique to the Greek islands. Turkey doesn’t share a border with Afghanistan. What are his choices for attending to Turkey? How does he do this?

AIKINS: So if you concentrate on the world by means of the eyes of a migrant, you understand, there’s all these alternative ways to get locations illegally and the place the shortest line is, for instance, the most secure. So that might be flying on to Turkey, proper? And that takes essentially the most cash. You must principally pay bribes to get a visa. Then there might be a barely longer route, you understand, over land, crossing the border because it’s cheaper however extra harmful. Omar, in fact, wished to go the shortest, most secure method. However sadly, that turned out to not be doable due to the disruptions attributable to the tried coup in Turkey round that point.

DAVIES: So that you determined you’ll go forward. You could possibly journey simply by yourself, and you’ll meet Omar in Turkey. He couldn’t simply journey (laughter) on his personal. He managed to get into Iran after which make a really tough crossing over – by means of some smugglers over the Zagros Mountains. You were not with him then, however you have been hoping he would make it. He ultimately – you join with him in Turkey the place his mom and sister and, I feel, a pal are there, proper? What’s your aim there? Now you are in Turkey, the place do you need to go? How are you going to make it?

AIKINS: Effectively, I used to be making an attempt to depart decisions as much as Omar ‘trigger it was his journey, in any case, and never mine. And there was just a few choices. You could possibly attempt to undergo the mountains of Bulgaria or cross over land to Greece, however he thought the very best concept was nonetheless to go to the Greek islands. The issue was now the islands have been type of like prisons and also you could not depart them however figured there’d be a way with smugglers. And so that is what we did. That is how we ended up within the little boats.

DAVIES: Proper. Yeah, there was no authorized method so that you can get on a ship and go to a Greek island. And it is fascinating since you – phrase had unfold that some islands have been higher than others to land on. The island of Lesbos was one that you just wished to keep away from. Why?

AIKINS: It was the most important, most infamous, most violent jail that had simply burned to the bottom per week earlier than in a riot. So it sounded horrible, and everybody warned us to not go there.

DAVIES: And if you say jail, we’re not speaking a few common jail for criminals on the island. We’re speaking a few – what was a refugee camp that, in impact, functioned as a detention facility, proper?

AIKINS: Yeah, individuals have been considerably free to come back and go from the camp itself however to not depart the island.

DAVIES: So that you made it clear to the smuggler that you just did not wish to go there, and the smuggler that you just linked with mentioned, no, you are not going there. However as you say within the guide, you set your self within the arms of criminals. What truly occurred then if you paid the smuggler and went right down to the shoreline of Turkey to try to get to Greece?

AIKINS: Effectively, he despatched us to the precise place that we had requested to not go to. He lied by means of his enamel to us, which is sadly a quite common expertise coping with these individuals.

DAVIES: Inform us in regards to the watercraft that you just acquired in and who else was there.

AIKINS: Effectively, we have been about 40 individuals. We have been taken to the seaside at night time. Omar’s pressured to get down at gunpoint as a result of he was indignant we have been going the flawed island. After which…

DAVIES: Wait, let me simply again up there. Did you say Omar was pressured in at gunpoint?

AIKINS: He is pressured to get out of the van at gunpoint when he would not depart, insisting that we be taken to a distinct island.

DAVIES: He mentioned, this isn’t what we paid for. And he noticed a weapon and mentioned, you are going now. In order that’s – you bought into this little boat.

AIKINS: Yeah, we had no alternative right now.

DAVIES: Wow.

AIKINS: So we get into this little boat, which is about 25 ft lengthy. It is rubber. It is 40 of us – ladies, youngsters, most of them are Syrian. And the way in which it really works is the smugglers simply type of decide a refugee to drive the boat as a result of the boat’s making a one-way journey. Everybody will get arrested after they land, and the boat’s confiscated. Lesvos is definitely shut sufficient that you would be able to see its lights at night time throughout the strait, you understand, it is just a few miles, and simply type of level for that and go, which is what we did. Nevertheless it was not a straightforward crossing.

DAVIES: Yeah. I imply, you describe the boat at one level as an overgrown pool toy. And you bought a bit of outboard motor on the again that certainly one of your fellow refugees is driving. That is in the midst of the night time round midnight, proper? It was not a straightforward crossing. Inform us what occurred.

AIKINS: Effectively, we – about midway throughout, we have been discovered by this warship, I feel it was a NATO frigate, that adopted us, and I imagine some within the Turkish Coast Guard who got here and tried to violently seize our boat and take it again to Turkey, which is one thing that the opposite individuals within the boat completely refused to do. And regardless of their terror and the unfamiliar state of affairs, they rose up and so they pushed the Turks off, fought them off. At one level, I assumed possibly we’d be rammed and sunk, however simply as issues have been about to get actually dangerous, a rescuer confirmed up, a Norwegian cutter, and so they ended up choosing up and taking us in.

DAVIES: Yeah. At a degree, you realized you had truly crossed into Greek territorial waters, which meant that the Turkish could not take you again, proper? What sort of contact did you have got with the Turks? I imply, did the boats are available in contact? Did individuals try to board your raft?

AIKINS: They got here up and rammed us amidships and have been making an attempt to type of push the boat’s bow round again towards Turkey whereas making an attempt to lasso our engine or disable it, which set off type of a melee between the passengers and these two Turks, who have been unarmed so far as I may see.

DAVIES: Wow. So that you’re truly rammed. Did you assume at this level that you just have been going to die?

AIKINS: I assumed possibly we would all go within the water, and if we did, persons are going to die. You realize, I am a powerful swimmer. I’ve grown up on the ocean. Most of the individuals there, they’d by no means seen the ocean earlier than; that is Omar’s first time in a ship. So I simply knew that issues have been going to get actually dangerous if we capsized.

DAVIES: Proper. And one of many issues that the smugglers provide is lifejackets. You did not have one, as I recall, proper?

AIKINS: Effectively, by the point we would completed type of arguing about which island we would go into, all of the lifejackets had been divvied up. So there’s just one left and I informed Omar to take it as a result of, like I mentioned, I grew up swimming.

DAVIES: And so they weren’t all the time dependable anyway, proper?

AIKINS: No. Lots of occasions they’re counterfeit, and so they’ll truly take up water. And after an hour or so, they are going to take you down. You realize, lots of people drowned making that crossing.

DAVIES: So this Norwegian vessel encounters you. You do make it to Lesbos. You have been arrested, as you anticipated to be; individuals will get arrested and apply for asylum and hope to proceed their journey. And so you find yourself on this camp known as Moria. Inform us what the circumstances have been like, what the expertise was.

AIKINS: Effectively, this camp was constructed for possibly a thousand individuals or so. And on the time, there have been greater than 5,000 crammed into it. And as I discussed, there’d been a hearth which destroyed a lot of the type of semipermanent housing, so individuals have been truly residing in little tenting tents within the mud. There was lengthy lineups for meals, fights would escape, the bogs have been, you understand, unspeakable. Folks have been actually sick. It was only a horrible, horrible place and type of surprising to see that within the European Union.

DAVIES: There had not too long ago been a hearth there. Did you discover out why, what occurred?

AIKINS: Effectively, there’d been a struggle between inmates, between completely different teams of Afghans and Arabs and Africans. One of many issues about this camp – and that is one thing that the Kurdish Iranian creator Behrouz Boochani writes about in his fantastic, you understand, tragic memoir of those Australian detention camps within the Pacific for migrants and refugees – is the camp pits individuals towards one another. You realize, there is a competitors for meals, for entry to medical care, to get out. And so it dehumanizes you – it might probably, no less than – and it creates this violence, which then makes it very straightforward to, in fact, blame these migrants for burning down their very own camp within the first place, the place you had – and that is the case to get again to Moria, the place you had some troublemakers lit one another’s tents on hearth and it acquired uncontrolled and unfold. And, in fact, the overwhelming majority of people that have been simply making an attempt to stay there in peace needed to flee and had nothing to do with it however misplaced a variety of their belongings within the hearth. It was actually simply, like, type of, like, determined scene after we arrived, the way in which individuals have been residing within the mud.

DAVIES: Let me take one other break right here and let me reintroduce you. We’re talking with Matthieu Aikins. He is a veteran journalist who has been reporting on Afghanistan within the Center East since 2008. His new guide is “The Bare Do not Worry The Water: An Underground Journey With Afghan Refugees.” He’ll be again to speak extra after this brief break. I am Dave Davies, and that is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF FRANK WOESTE, RYAN KEBERLE AND VINCENT COURTOIS’ “BLUE FEATHER”)

DAVIES: That is FRESH AIR. I am Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Our visitor is journalist Matthieu Aikins, who’s reported on Afghanistan and the Center East since 2008. His new guide particulars the journey he took in 2016, when he shed his identification and passport to affix his longtime Afghan interpreter in his effort to make his method alongside smuggler’s routes to Europe to begin a brand new life. The guide is “The Bare Do not Worry The Water: An Underground Journey With Afghan Refugees.”

So that you and Omar, your interpreter and driver if you have been reporting in Afghanistan, have made it to the Greek island of Lesbos at this squalid refugee camp, which individuals actually consult with as a jail, known as Moria. You do not wish to keep there. You wish to get from there to Athens, from which there are different alternatives to try to make the leap to Europe. However you are on an island (laughter), proper? How lengthy have been you there on Moria? How did you spend your days?

AIKINS: We have been there for just a few weeks ultimately. And we might attempt to get out of camp as a lot as doable. So like I mentioned, you could possibly come and go freely, simply not depart the island. So we’d take the bus or stroll into city and hang around by the port with a bunch of different migrants. And there was this ferry boat that left, you understand, a number of occasions a day for Athens. So everybody – it was proper by the place the place these migrants would hang around on the dock. In order that they’d spend their time type of watching the ferry boat and scheming of the way to sneak onto it.

DAVIES: Yeah. What have been the alternatives? What have been the choices there for spiriting your method onto the ferry boat?

AIKINS: Possibility No. 1 was attempt to move as a reputable passenger. So you could possibly purchase a ticket on the town after which simply attempt to stroll on as a result of technically, it is a home ferry. However in fact, the Greek police are there. And so they’re checking to ensure no migrants, you understand, who do not have correct paperwork can get on this ferry. However possibly if you happen to seemed sufficient like a vacationer or an help employee, it was your fortunate day, you could possibly stroll previous. In fact, that – you needed to look type of European for that. One other method, if you happen to have been – that is for the determined – was to crawl right into a truck and attempt to stow away aboard these cargo vans that have been occurring. However that is, in fact, fairly harmful.

DAVIES: Proper. And if you say get on the truck, you are speaking about, usually, within the undercarriage by the axle, proper?

AIKINS: That is one of many hiding locations, is to climb onto the axle itself, usually with, like, a bit of board so you aren’t getting caught within the spinning shaft.

DAVIES: And also you had a variety of conversations with different refugees as a result of everyone was making an attempt to perform this identical factor. Do you know individuals who tried that and so they succeed?

AIKINS: Yeah. Probably the most, you understand, decided often do get by means of. And so these individuals who had made it by means of – afterward, after we acquired to Athens, we would be strolling down the road and all of the sudden stumble upon somebody we acknowledged from the island, and be a really joyful second that they’d gotten out. And I’d ask how you probably did it. And a variety of occasions, it was on the vans.

DAVIES: And, in fact, the place there is a want, there are individuals to fulfill that want. So there have been smugglers on Lesbos, as there are at some other level alongside this journey. You – I assume you determined you could possibly go to Italy by yourself, the place your passport was there with a pal, however not Omar. He needed to discover a method off. How did he lastly get off of Lesbos?

AIKINS: You realize, one of many themes of the guide is how borders create smugglers, and the way the extra, you understand, partitions and legal guidelines that you just put as much as block individuals from transferring, the extra earnings and alternatives are going to be for smugglers. So sure, smugglers had began taking individuals off the island and getting them to Athens. So Omar finally acquired pretend paperwork that allow him escape and go onward to Athens.

DAVIES: Obtained on a aircraft, did not he, a business flight to Athens?

AIKINS: He did. Yeah.

DAVIES: Yeah. He ultimately – he does not find yourself in Greece. He isn’t nonetheless there, proper? He is made it to security?

AIKINS: He’s, yeah. And he is doing fantastic.

DAVIES: One of many exceptional issues about this guide is that there is – it is a very detailed account of a fairly exceptional expertise. And I do know in my very own reporting experiences, if you’re out at one thing the place there’s a variety of motion, like an indication, or if you’re on the street, it is laborious to take good notes, laborious to protect them. You needed to preserve your identification as a journalist secret. How did you retain information and notes of what you have been experiencing?

AIKINS: Effectively, it turned out to be simpler than I assumed as a result of I had this smartphone, you understand, an affordable Samsung, and so did everybody else. And so they have been all on Fb or no matter – WhatsApp – all day. So I may simply sit and kind up these notes on my cellphone. I ended up taking 60,000 phrases of notes over the course of the journey. And I’d periodically e-mail them by means of a type of dummy e-mail deal with, after which delete them from my cellphone so they would not be there.

DAVIES: You realize, you spent a lot time with refugees each, you understand, in Turkey, making an attempt to get to Lesbos – in Lesbos, making an attempt to get to Athens – and Athens. You realize, one of many issues that this journey gave you was an intimate have a look at refugees, which most of us by no means see. I imply, even reporters who come and interview individuals, it is usually in a circumstance the place they are not capable of be candid. You merely had heaps and many frank conversations. You actually acquired to know Omar’s household very effectively. I am questioning what you noticed that stunned you that might shock different individuals about these individuals fleeing for a brand new life.

AIKINS: I do not assume it was very shocking to me as a result of I had spent so a few years in Afghanistan. And I had a lot of Afghan buddies and knew Afghans, and knew they’re able to humor in dire circumstances, and that regardless of all of the challenges they’ve had, they’ve an extremely wealthy household life that helps them. And, I imply, I’d say that what I discovered is how various things just like the legislation and borders look from the underside, from the angle of people who find themselves pushed by desperation to cross them. And it actually muddles the ethical image that I feel we regularly have of the world rising up in secure, orderly societies. We do not notice how a lot violence is critical at our borders to maintain individuals out.

DAVIES: You went by means of some harrowing experiences after we talked about being on this boat crossing to Greece. And there was additionally a second the place you have been truly arrested in Turkey for circumstances we cannot get into. And also you spent a lot time in circumstances the place you were not in management, the place you handed your destiny over to, as you set it, criminals, smugglers. And also you say that – you speak within the guide a bit about your willingness to take threat and the way that modifications over time. And also you mentioned that repeated publicity to threat had made you extra prepared to take it. And also you write, I perceive I used to be most likely broken. However on the time, it appeared helpful for working in locations like Afghanistan and Syria. I am questioning if you happen to may simply clarify {that a} bit, how you are feeling you have been broken?

AIKINS: Effectively, I feel I used to be not behaving in a method that would appear regular to lots of people. You simply get so inured to the chance and the loss of life and destruction working in struggle zones. Maybe, it made me a bit reckless. However I used to be actually making an attempt to grasp that and its impression on the those who I used to be touring with to see their perspective that, you understand, they weren’t seeing this as a narrative or an journey. This was their lives and was one thing I struggled with was to defer to, you understand, Omar’s concepts about what dangers we must always take and should not.

DAVIES: Now that you have been again within the states for some time, is the injury repaired? Have your emotions modified?

AIKINS: Yeah. You bought to deal with your self. And, you understand, I used to be in Afghanistan for 5 months. I began in the summertime and coated the evacuation. And I feel everybody’s nonetheless processing simply the tragedy of what occurred there and what it tells us in regards to the final 20 years. So you bought to take a while to get better after this sort of stuff. However I have been fortunate. I’ve had very supportive individuals in my life.

DAVIES: Let me reintroduce you right here. We will take one other break. We’re talking with Matthieu Aikins. He has been reporting on Afghanistan and the Center East for a few years. His new guide is “The Bare Do not Worry the Water: An Underground Journey With Afghan Refugees.” We’ll proceed in our dialog in only a second. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SOLANGE SONG, “WEARY”)

DAVIES: That is FRESH AIR, and we’re talking with Matthieu Aikins. He is a journalist who’s reported on Afghanistan and the Center East since 2008. His new guide about his journey together with his former Afghan interpreter in his effort to make his technique to Europe alongside smugglers’ routes known as “The Bare Do not Worry The Water.”

You latterly returned to Afghanistan. You have been there from June by means of November – proper? – and also you have been there for the withdrawal of the American forces. One of many tales that you just wrote about, I feel you have been the lead byline on this, was the one in regards to the drone strike, which the U.S. navy claimed had taken out a automobile bomb most likely engineered by ISIS in Kabul that posed a risk to U.S. troops; turned out to be a horrible mistake. You have been a kind of who principally uncovered the reality, that this was – this focused an harmless household. How did you get the story?

AIKINS: Effectively, the strike occurred within the night. And at first, it was reported possibly it was, like, a rocket that missed the airport and landed there, however there was additionally solutions there have been civilian casualties. The following morning, I went with my then-housemate, Jim Huylebroek, photographer, so we rode over and located the place the place the strike had been. There was a crowd of neighbors gathered across the shattered, you understand, smoldering wreck that was spattered with physique elements and everybody was mourning the deaths of this household. So immediately, we may see that one thing was very flawed with the navy’s official narrative.

DAVIES: Was the household prepared to speak to you? How did you set this collectively?

AIKINS: They’d their cellphones out and have been exhibiting me photos of the kids they mentioned had died within the strike. They confirmed me the enterprise card and paperwork belonging to Zemari Ahmadi, who was the one focused within the strike and saying, you understand, he labored for an American NGO, you understand, he is an help employee. They’d the paperwork proper there.

DAVIES: There have been different Instances reporters in Afghanistan and, I assume, working the story from different locations. What was it like getting the U.S. navy to acknowledge that this had occurred?

AIKINS: Effectively, I’ve coated these sorts of civilian casualties tales earlier than, and when there’s an investigation, you virtually by no means see outcomes this quick. It might probably take months. They drag it out. Typically you need to sue to attempt to, you understand, get the FOIA request by means of to get the paperwork. On this case, I feel there was a lot consideration across the story that they felt they needed to get out forward of it. And, yeah, in a short time after our investigation got here out – and there was different investigations by different information retailers, too – the navy admitted that it was fully flawed and that each one these harmless individuals had been killed for nothing. However in fact, there was no penalties for anyone, finally. They determined the procedures have been adopted, so nobody’s going to be disciplined, which is clearly very upsetting to the household of the individuals who have been killed.

DAVIES: It was fascinating that – you wrote a 20,000-word piece that was on the quilt of The New York Instances journal in December in regards to the withdrawal of American forces and its aftermath. It is a actually gripping story of each type of what occurs amongst Afghan governmental elites in addition to individuals on the road. I am simply questioning, you understand, you spent a very long time this. What’s your tackle the American withdrawal? You realize, it is gotten such criticism and you will need to know numerous Afghans whose lives have been turned the other way up or, in some circumstances, misplaced in the middle of all this. Ought to the People have stayed longer? Ought to they’ve had one other surge to remain and struggle the Taliban?

AIKINS: No, positively not. I feel that might have been a mistake, would have been making an attempt the identical factor that is failed already as soon as. I imply, I feel the Biden administration made the worst of an unattainable state of affairs. They have been handed a state of affairs the place there have been no good choices, however the way in which that the evacuation unfolded was, you understand, disaster. It fully destroyed the nation’s establishments. Proper now, like, there is no functioning monetary system within the nation, and persons are ravenous as a result of all of it collapsed. There was no orderly switch. Everybody who was able of energy minimize and ran if they may. So I feel the U.S. navy forces did have to depart Afghanistan some level quickly, however I do not assume it may have gone any worse than the way in which it did.

DAVIES: Whenever you have been again in Afghanistan this previous 12 months, and most or all the Instances employees left, you stayed there since you’re a freelancer. Have been you the one Instances reporter there throughout the withdrawal or after a degree?

AIKINS: I used to be the one reporter on the bottom for some time, together with two photographers, Jim Huylebroek and Victor Blue. However as a result of we have been freelancers, we have been ready to decide on to remain behind, whereas all of the employees needed to evacuate.

DAVIES: What was that like, I imply, a rustic in chaos? How did you resolve what to do? Did it – did you are feeling a variety of strain?

AIKINS: Yeah, I did not actually sleep for 2 weeks, however there was a lot adrenaline going that we have been capable of work every single day. I usually write for magazines, long-form tales, a bit slower paced, however now I used to be type of lent to the newspaper for some time. In order that was a a lot quicker tempo, and there was a variety of consideration coming from tv and radio. And we have been studying to navigate the brand new Taliban energy construction whereas, on the identical time, you understand, making an attempt to get to those areas across the airport the place there was this huge suicide bombing or this drone strike. So it was fully tumultuous and a blur, however you felt such as you have been doing a job that was essential, that you just knew you had a accountability to doc what was taking place as a result of we have been one of many few individuals on the bottom. So that you simply needed to do it.

DAVIES: And would you come to your own home in Kabul each night time to jot down?

AIKINS: Yeah, Jim and I lived on a avenue that had previously been guarded by the police, and now there was Taliban exterior our home. And, you understand, we type of acquired to know them, and so they did not give us any hassle. Nevertheless it was a bit of bit sketchy, and the town modified. You realize, it was a ghost city as quickly as sundown got here round.

DAVIES: You realize, if you have been on the smugglers’ roads, one of many belongings you mentioned was, like, if you happen to have been recognized to be a Westerner, there was a threat of being kidnapped and being held for ransom. Did you have got that worry on this interval, when the Afghan authorities had collapsed and the Taliban have been taking up?

AIKINS: Effectively, it was the Taliban who have been going to kidnap you beforehand a variety of occasions. And now that they have been the federal government and supposedly claimed to wish to shield overseas journalists and NGO staff as a result of they wished to painting themselves as a accountable authority, there was truly much less risk of kidnapping at first, no less than. We have been extra fearful about ISIS, who may wish to kill a foreigner, or simply being within the flawed place on the flawed time. There was a variety of taking pictures across the airport.

DAVIES: What sort of future do you see for Afghanistan?

AIKINS: I feel that the nation is in survival mode proper now. The state is on the breaking point as a result of it is fully depending on overseas funding, which has now been minimize off. And there’s a very unsure political state of affairs. I do not know if the Taliban goes to have the ability to unite the nation below them and govern. And if they cannot, then we may see a brand new spherical of civil struggle. So luckily, I feel that that is depending on the actions of the USA and different regional nations. And if there is a technique to stabilize the state and forestall a brand new outbreak of combating, you understand, it won’t be as dangerous. However we’re a state of affairs the place tens of millions of persons are at risk of hunger.

DAVIES: And is the Taliban – I imply, are they refraining from, you understand, the mass imprisonment and executions and laborious oppression of girls that folks feared?

AIKINS: I feel if you happen to have a look at the worst-case eventualities or what the consensus was about how terrible the Taliban have been going to be, that they have been going to bloodbath individuals within the streets and, you understand, refuse to permit ladies to depart the home, then, no, these worst-case fears have not panned out. They’re partially primarily based on a, I feel, demonization of our enemy. However are they repressive? Have they dedicated human rights violations? Are they exclusionary? Have they rolled again the rights of girls? Yeah. Completely, they’ve.

DAVIES: Do you propose to maintain reporting on Afghanistan? Do you propose to return?

AIKINS: I do. I do not know the way I may ever overlook this nation or not return. I imply, it has been most of my grownup life that I’ve spent there engaged on it. So, yeah, I will be again.

DAVIES: Matthieu Aikins, thanks a lot for talking with us.

AIKINS: It is my pleasure.

DAVIES: Matthieu Aikins has been reporting on Afghanistan and the Center East since 2008. His new guide is “The Bare Do not Worry The Water: An Underground Journey With Afghan Refugees.” Coming Up, Nick Quah critiques “The Trojan Horse Affair,” the newest podcast from Serial Productions. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF JAKE MASON TRIO’S “THE STRANGER IN THE MIRROR”)

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