Often overlooked, civil rights advocate Constance Baker Motley gets her due : NPR


That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross.

In the present day, we’ll hear a few girl whose biographer says belongs within the pantheon of nice American leaders. And the shortage of consideration she’s obtained is a type of historic malpractice. That girl is civil rights lawyer Constance Baker Motley. Her biographer, Tomiko Brown-Nagin, spoke with our visitor interviewer, Tonya Mosley. Tonya is a particular contributor to NPR’s Right here & Now and host of the podcast Reality Be Informed. Tomiko Brown-Nagin is a professor of constitutional regulation at Harvard Legislation College and dean of the Radcliffe Institute for Superior Research at Harvard. Her new guide is named “Civil Rights Queen: Constance Baker Motley And The Battle For Equality.”

This is Tonya.


TOMIKO BROWN-NAGIN: I am delighted to be with you. Thanks for having me.

MOSLEY: There’s a vivid recounting within the guide that units the grounding for Motley’s fame because the civil rights queen, and that is her first expertise as a courtroom lawyer in Mississippi, which was the South’s most repressive state again in 1949. What was she there litigating, and what reception did she obtain?

BROWN-NAGIN: Motley was in Jackson, Miss., litigating a case on behalf of African American schoolteachers who have been subjected to a pay disparity. And as she walked the streets of Jackson and entered the courtroom there, she induced a sensation. Few individuals had seen a girl lawyer or a Black lawyer. And right here was this unimaginable mixture of a Black girl lawyer. And other people have been simply – some have been excited. Some have been – simply did not know what to make of her. And that’s the story that I inform in my guide about her affect each as an emblem, but in addition her substantive affect on the regulation.

MOSLEY: Motley noticed whereas she was there the vestiges of slavery and the ills of segregation. That is how you place it within the guide. She could not discover lodging. She needed to sleep in a rooming home for Black individuals. White grocery shops refused to promote meals to her as she was litigating that case. How did that have form Motley’s view of her function on this struggle for civil rights?

BROWN-NAGIN: Properly, the fact, Tonya, is that Motley skilled among the identical indignities as her consumer. And so whilst she is working as a civil rights lawyer on behalf of a broader Black group, she can also be engaged on her personal behalf and on behalf of the NAACP Authorized Protection Fund legal professionals, lots of whom have been African American, who have been in search of to kill Jim Crow.

MOSLEY: You write about how Motley’s foundational upbringing was actually necessary in understanding her perceptions of Mississippi and her work extra broadly. Her dad and mom migrated to the U.S. from Nevis, which is a small island within the Caribbean Sea, and raised Motley and her siblings in New Haven, Conn. You write that her father taught his kids that they have been superior to Black People. And, , this view of Black immigrants like Motley’s father – the view that that they had of Black People – we do not typically communicate brazenly about it. Are you able to describe it?

BROWN-NAGIN: We do not. And but we should always. It is an necessary a part of American historical past, which illustrates, as I conclude in my guide – it seems that Caribbean immigrants are immigrants. And on this nation, immigrants typically search to outline themselves in opposition to African American. And that’s precisely what occurred in Baker Motley’s household. Her father and her mom – her whole household have been culturally conservative. They have been completely satisfied to be part of the British Empire. They considered themselves as superior to African People, significantly these within the South, whom her father characterised as shiftless and as permitting themselves to be debased by Jim Crow. And what I conclude within the guide is that both due to or regardless of her father’s mischaracterizations of Blacks within the South, Motley grew to become their champion.

MOSLEY: How did rising up in New Haven, Conn., extra particularly, additionally affect Motley’s notion of race?

BROWN-NAGIN: New Haven, Conn. was a city with many immigrants. Motley thus grew up in an built-in atmosphere. She attended built-in faculties within the shadow of Yale College, the place just about all of her male kinfolk labored, together with her father, who labored for various the Yale consuming golf equipment, together with Cranium and Bones at one level. And the household – the daddy specifically learn himself into the privilege of his younger, white, male expenses, which is a motive that he may view himself as superior to African People. And Motley additionally informed herself a narrative about how New Haven, New England was very, very totally different from the Deep South. And, after all, in some ways it was. However it’s a matter of diploma.

In order it occurs, her father had been a cobbler on Nevis. However he was not capable of get a job in New Haven in that place as a result of it was one which was occupied by white ethnics, by Italians. And so there was employment discrimination in New Haven. There was an occasion the place Motley was turned away from a seaside within the suburbs of New Haven due to her race. And so there have been limitations, and but it was important to her household to downplay racism whereas they have been aware of their class place. And there is a approach through which the sense of superiority and the story that she informed herself concerning the totally different circumstances through which she had grown up have been useful to her. When she went to locations like Jackson, Miss. and did expertise profound racism, she was capable of push by, partially as a result of she had that protecting armor that had been cultivated by her dad and mom.

MOSLEY: I am additionally actually fascinated by the truth that Baker Motley grew up within the shadow of Yale College, as you stated, her father working for a number of secret societies as a prepare dinner. And but her lot as a girl throughout that point meant it wasn’t precisely anticipated that she would even attend faculty.

BROWN-NAGIN: Completely not. In actual fact, when she informed her dad and mom and others locally that she aspired to be a lawyer, they thought that she was loopy. It was a preposterous thought. They stated girls do not get wherever within the regulation. And, after all, their perceptions have been primarily based in truth. And he or she additionally needed to wrestle for equality. She was an activist even in her youth, and thus she maintained her aspiration. She managed to draw monetary assist from a neighborhood philanthropist, and he or she thus was capable of attend first Fisk after which NYU as an undergraduate. She graduated with a bachelor’s in economics, after which she went to Columbia Legislation College.

MOSLEY: How did World Battle II ease Motley Baker’s potential to satisfy this dream of attending undergrad and later regulation faculty?

BROWN-NAGIN: Positive. It is an necessary story. Properly, Motley discusses in her autobiography how when she arrived at Columbia Legislation College, it was like a ghost city. Lots of the males who would have been on campus weren’t there. They have been on the struggle entrance. And that meant that Columbia, like many different establishments of upper training, have been in search of others to fill these seats, and that’s the context through which Constance Baker Motley, in addition to individuals like Bella Abzug, discovered themselves at Columbia Legislation College throughout World Battle II.

MOSLEY: For those who’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Tomiko Brown-Nagin, dean of the Harvard Radcliffe Institute and Daniel P.S. Paul Professor of Constitutional Legislation at Harvard Legislation College. She’s written a brand new guide referred to as “Civil Rights Queen: Constance Baker Motley And The Battle For Equality.” Extra after the break. That is FRESH AIR.


MOSLEY: That is FRESH AIR. I am Tonya Mosley, and we’re speaking with Tomiko Brown-Nagin, who has written a brand new guide referred to as “Civil Rights Queen: Constance Baker Motley And The Battle For Equality.” Brown-Nagin is the dean of the Harvard Radcliffe Institute and Daniel P.S. Paul Professor of Constitutional Legislation at Harvard Legislation College.

Let’s speak a bit about an important determine in Motley’s life, and that is Thurgood Marshall. You write that her expertise of making use of for a job on the NAACP Authorized Protection Fund, the place Thurgood Marshall was head counsel, alleviated some ache for Baker Motley, the ache of rejection from different corporations. What had she skilled earlier than that fateful assembly?

BROWN-NAGIN: Proper, when Motley went to an interview at a New York Metropolis regulation agency, she was turned away. Primarily, the door was closed in her face. The companions didn’t need to rent a Black girl. And, , the constraints on girls’s potential to enter authorized follow primarily based on gender are tales that could possibly be informed by Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sandra Day O’Connor and plenty of others. And within the face of that rejection, when she went to the NAACP Authorized Protection Fund in 1945 and Thurgood Marshall was pleasant to her and employed her on the spot, she was delighted. It was a dream job for her, and thus, she was all the time so grateful to Thurgood Marshall for giving her an opportunity. She stated that if it had not been for Thurgood Marshall, nobody ever would have heard of Constance Baker Motley. And positively by hiring her, Motley was doing one thing that was uncommon and extremely progressive. Motley was, for many of her 20-year profession on the NAACP Authorized Protection Fund, the one girl lawyer, and that’s the reason she was so grateful to Marshall all of her life.

MOSLEY: How did Justice Marshall view Motley Baker? What was their relationship like?

BROWN-NAGIN: They’d nice affection for each other and nice respect for one another. I cite a line from an oral historical past interview in my guide, the place Marshall says that Connie simply walked in and took over, which is a sign of each his respect and her excessive worth to the Inc. fund, because the group was referred to as. On the identical time, I cite a few episodes that do reveal that the connection was not uncomplicated, and I’ll speak concerning the – what I name the setback of 1961, the place she was not promoted to Thurgood Marshall’s place when he himself left the NAACP Authorized Protection Fund for the court docket, and Motley was dissatisfied. She thought that each race and gender factored into Marshall’s choice. After which earlier, after she returned to New York from litigating her first trial in Mississippi – and recall that she had been preventing on behalf of Black schoolteachers who have been subjected to a pay disparity – she truly confronted Marshall a few pay disparity in her personal work. She thought that she neither had the title nor the wage that she deserved and was capable of, by self-advocacy, get a elevate.

MOSLEY: Taking us again, although, to the ’40s and the ’50s, if we may simply set ourselves there, you write about Black feminine professionals going through excessive scrutiny, that duality of being a Black particular person, a girl and likewise a mom. That scrutiny of being a Black girl skilled performed out in an actual approach throughout the litigation of Brown v. Board of Schooling. It was round that point that Motley gave beginning to her son. Are you able to inform us extra about that?

BROWN-NAGIN: Positive. Properly, I do foreground in my chapter on Brown v. Board of Schooling the fact that Motley grew to become pregnant, gave beginning to her son, Joel, and he skilled his infancy and toddlerhood on the identical time that she was serving to to jot down the criticism after which the briefs and do all the work, together with some grunt work, that went into this monumental victory in 1954 in Brown v. Board of Schooling, the place the Supreme Court docket unanimously held that state-mandated racial segregation in faculties was unconstitutional. I spotlight how she is balancing her household life and her work. You understand, she’s the one girl on that authorized staff. These males clearly assist her and respect her.

Alternatively, they’re working actually lengthy hours. It is anticipated that the legal professionals, throughout the interval once they’re making ready their briefs for the Supreme Court docket, are away from their households for days at a time. And, after all, Motley had a younger little one. And I write about how nerve-racking it was for her to be in that place. And, after all, it stays the case that high-powered professionals and actually anybody within the workforce who’s a mother or father has to juggle the 2.

And I believed it was necessary to not solely speak concerning the lawyering work that Motley was doing within the – at the moment, but in addition to situate her as a mom and as a partner. And happily, I notice she had a partner who was very supportive of her, who co-parented. She had siblings, and he or she employed individuals to assist with little one care and with the maintenance of the family and was unafraid to say that she did.

MOSLEY: That was a really progressive approach of dealing with the family, outsourcing the whole lot from cleansing to cooking at a time when it was thought that that was a girl’s function. You convey up her husband, Joel Motley Jr. He was not solely a faithful husband; he supported her profession in ways in which have been actually uncommon throughout that point.

BROWN-NAGIN: That is proper. They’d a – what I name an egalitarian marriage nicely earlier than that was a factor (laughter). You understand, he supported her. He was a fan of her. He did not compete together with her, and he had his personal profession. He was an actual property dealer in Harlem along with his personal agency, which gave him flexibility to assist her. And it is only a nice love story. They have been collectively for over 50 years. And everybody that I spoke to counted Joel as a key think about Motley’s success. I additionally will add, although, that whilst she credited her husband with supporting her profession, Motley herself stated, however he all the time made greater than I did (laughter) by way of his earnings. And he or she thought that his being the male breadwinner helped to even issues out just a little bit, which I additionally assume is necessary to notice.

MOSLEY: He labored in actual property, as you stated. Information articles stated that he had graduated from regulation faculty, however you write the regulation faculty half was not true. What does that fabricated story inform us about perhaps the gender function dynamics that have been enjoying out throughout that point, primarily that her husband needed to even be as necessary?

BROWN-NAGIN: Yeah, it’s an fascinating and, I feel, revealing incontrovertible fact that – there was the belief that he wanted to be – prone to save face and to evolve to expectations about males being necessary and extra achieved than their wives – to say that he had graduated from faculty after which from regulation faculty. And that was not the case. That fib truly sheds gentle on the best way through which all through her profession, and significantly so when she was in politics, Motley was scrutinized. You understand, journalists would ask her about her household. They needed to learn about him, concerning the son – primarily, what was happening in that family that she could possibly be enjoying this commanding function in public life? And so that is the context through which that actuality was created.

MOSLEY: How was she handled by the white legal professionals and the individuals within the court docket?

BROWN-NAGIN: Properly, I inform various tales, most of them within the context of her litigation in Mississippi about simply how peculiar she was considered and the way disrespectfully she was handled by the white male lawyer who litigated the Mississippi case for the state when Motley was attempting the James Meredith case. She realized after she prolonged her hand to shake his that her hand simply stayed on the market. He did not need to shake her hand as a result of he had been taught that Blacks have been inferior. He refused to name her by her correct title, Mrs. Motley. He would seek advice from her as her or she and even one time referred to as her Constance. She objected and stated to the decide, he must not do this (laughter), primarily. And thereafter, he referred to her because the New York counsel ‘trigger he could not convey himself to name her by her proper title.

GROSS: We’re listening to the interview our visitor interviewer Tonya Mosley recorded with Tomiko Brown-Nagin, writer of the brand new guide “Civil Rights Queen: Constance Baker Motley And The Battle For Equality.” We’ll hear extra of the interview after a break. I am Terry Gross, and that is FRESH AIR.


GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let’s get again to our interview with Tomiko Brown-Nagin, writer of the brand new guide “Civil Rights Queen” about an necessary however under-recognized civil rights lawyer, Constance Baker Motley. She filed the unique criticism in Brown v. the Board of Schooling, grew to become the primary Black girl to argue earlier than the Supreme Court docket, was on Martin Luther King’s authorized staff, was the primary Black girl to function a federal decide and the primary elected to the New York state Senate. However as a Black girl preventing for civil rights, she confronted each racism and sexism within the courtroom.

Biographer Tomiko Brown-Nagin is a professor of constitutional regulation at Harvard Legislation College and dean of the Radcliffe Institute for Superior Research at Harvard. She spoke with visitor interviewer Tonya Mosley.

MOSLEY: Let’s speak a bit concerning the desegregation of faculties and Motley’s function in that effort. By means of your guide, we get a lens into among the techniques used throughout that point to win these instances, and also you write a few specific technique that was used within the case involving two Black girls who utilized to attend the College of Alabama, Autherine Lucy and Polly Myers. Each have been denied entry, however Lucy was a greater sufferer to talk than Myers. Are you able to inform us that story?

BROWN-NAGIN: That is proper. The issue with Polly Anne Myers, within the view of the College of Alabama, was that she had a faulty character. And why was this argued? Properly, as a result of it turned out that she had grow to be pregnant earlier than she married, and this grew to become a foundation for arguing that she was an individual of poor character, of unfastened morals. And, after all, this occurred within the context of a second in American historical past the place girls who had kids, quote, “out of wedlock” have been thought, in truth, to be of decrease character.

And the story that I inform is about how the NAACP Authorized Protection Fund went together with this. They dropped Polly Anne Myer when her character was put into concern by the college. And I notice that however, that is surprising of the legal professionals for 2 causes. To begin with, Constance Baker Motley believed within the politics of respectability. So she would have shared a priority about how one introduced oneself to the world, and he or she would have believed in cultural conservatism. On the identical time, these civil rights legal professionals believed that they wanted to have the easiest plaintiffs – the neatest, , well-dressed, from good households – in order that they did not need to cope with character points. And they also decided that’s fully comprehensible and but one which was problematic for Polly Anne Myer, who actually had been a driver of that effort to desegregate the College of Alabama. And I exploit the story to indicate how sophisticated these civil rights instances have been for the plaintiffs who got here underneath scrutiny themselves in ways in which have been hurtful.

MOSLEY: You write that conformity, extra broadly throughout the civil rights motion, grew to become kind of resistance – an act of resistance. That is fascinating as a result of I do not know if I’ve ever heard it defined this manner.

BROWN-NAGIN: Positive. Let me speak concerning the College of Georgia case, which is a case the place Motley thought she had one of the best plaintiffs ever. And people plaintiffs have been Hamilton Holmes and Charlayne Hunter-Gault, the journalist. And Hamilton Holmes was a doctor. They have been each what you may name all-American individuals from nice households and really sensible and handsome besides. And Motley thought that they have been an image of middle-class respectability, of Black success and thus deserving of admission to the College of Georgia. How may you flip them down? Resistance as a result of it revealed to the world that if Charlayne Hunter-Gault and Hamilton Holmes could possibly be rejected from the College of Georgia, then clearly there was one thing amiss. And so that’s the context through which one may see the politics of respectability as a type of self-protection and whilst a type of resistance and a foundation for demanding entry to society on equal phrases.

MOSLEY: I need to step again just a little bit and speak about Motley’s motivation. Primarily, she used the authorized instruments that have been used to oppress Black individuals to primarily liberate them. Did she see it that approach? What has she stated about her motivation to endure a lot inside what was, on the time, a white, male occupation?

BROWN-NAGIN: Properly, she was a girl on a mission, and he or she understood her history-making flip as a lawyer, and it allowed her to persevere when she did expertise the indignities of not having the ability to discover satisfactory meals or a spot to remain and even having her life be underneath risk, because it was when she traveled to states like Alabama.

Through the College of Alabama case, there have been males stationed exterior of a house the place she was dwelling to guard her – males with weapons – as a result of that’s what was required. And that is a sign of how a lot hostility there was. When she was litigating the College of Mississippi case on behalf of James Meredith – she referred to as the case the final battle of the Civil Battle – her life, once more, was underneath risk. In actual fact, she was working alongside Medgar Evers, who was assassinated simply after she left the state of Mississippi, having been victorious within the James Meredith case.

MOSLEY: You point out Medgar Evers, an NAACP civil rights activist and voting rights activist in Mississippi. She was shut with him. What did you study concerning the toll that this early work had on her, each bodily and emotionally?

BROWN-NAGIN: Properly, she was near Medgar Evers. He was her fixed companion when she was litigating the Ole Miss case. She could be pushed by him to the federal courthouse in Jackson each time she needed to go. He invited her to his residence the place she may take pleasure in home-cooked meals, and he or she may have fellowship along with his spouse Myrlie and their kids and whoever else may drop by the home. And he or she observed – she had a way of being unsafe when she was there in the home and even observed that there have been bushes near the house, the place she thought they could possibly be a hiding place for somebody who needed to do them hurt. And that’s what ended up occurring. Medgar Evers was assassinated. And he or she was devastated. She could not get off the bed for weeks. She could not even convey herself to attend his funeral. In a phrase, she was depressed after that. It was a low level in her life. And but, she did emerge victorious from the state of Mississippi as probably the most revered legal professionals in America after that battle.

MOSLEY: What was the method of you discovering out that info? I am simply occupied with how discussions round psychological well being and melancholy weren’t issues that folk talked about again then and even exhibited outwardly. And Motley, as somebody who needed to current in a strategy to maintain her standing in energy on this male-dominated area, what have been the ways in which she navigated that?

BROWN-NAGIN: Properly, there have been little bits that she threw into interviews, to her autobiography, which is generally only a recounting of authorized instances and ideas. However there are just a few private issues in there that I discovered. And the fact is that the legal professionals, together with Thurgood Marshall, typically have been beleaguered by the work. Martin Luther King Jr., whom Motley additionally represented, could be torn and have conflicts over techniques and be unsure of themselves. And I believed it was essential to incorporate this info in my work on Motley. And I additionally seek advice from the struggles of different figures within the civil rights motion as a result of it is necessary to understand that even these heroic figures have been, in any case, human. You understand, James Meredith, at a number of factors, tried to primarily again out of the mission that he was on to desegregate the College of Mississippi as a result of it was simply so arduous. It took a toll on him, on his household. I seek advice from it as a sort of trauma of the activism that each Meredith and Motley and so many different individuals skilled. And it enrichens, I feel, the story of the civil rights motion, of our heroes once we know that they have been human, in any case.

MOSLEY: I am unable to even start to think about how devastating it was for Motley to comprehend that the bushes that she warned Medgar Evers about have been truly utilized by the gunman as a hiding place. How did you hear about that?

BROWN-NAGIN: She writes about that in her autobiography. As I stated, that work is generally a recounting, a fairly dry recounting, I ought to say – though, very useful – of authorized developments. However there are some locations in that guide the place she reveals herself. And that’s considered one of them, these bushes. And picture simply how devastating it might have been for her – and it was – to know that her – she primarily had a premonition, you may say, of what may occur there. And Medgar Evers was her pal. And it was only a very arduous time for her.

MOSLEY: For those who’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Tomiko Brown-Nagin, dean of Harvard Radcliffe Institute and Daniel P.S. Paul professor of constitutional regulation at Harvard Legislation College. She’s written a brand new guide referred to as “Civil Rights Queen: Constance Baker Motley And The Battle For Equality.”

Extra after the break. That is FRESH AIR.


MOSLEY: That is FRESH AIR. I am Tonya Mosley. And we’re speaking with Tomiko Brown-Nagin, who has written a brand new guide referred to as “Civil Rights Queen: Constance Baker Motley And The Battle For Equality.”

We’re about to reside by one other affirmation means of a Supreme Court docket justice. And when Baker Motley was being confirmed to be a federal decide, she needed to paint herself not as political, that she could possibly be neutral. You point out this. Are you able to speak about if she needed to downplay her necessary civil rights work, and that additionally Motley pushed again just a little bit? All individuals have backgrounds and views, not simply Black girls.

BROWN-NAGIN: That is proper. When she was nominated to the bench by President Johnson, there have been those that stated that her follow expertise, which was intensive, however was slender, too slender as a result of her accomplishments occurred within the subject of civil rights. There have been these, together with the top of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator James Eastland of Mississippi, who claimed that she was a communist. This was only a pretext for opposing this girl who had introduced down segregation at his alma mater, Ole Miss. There was the ABA, the bar affiliation, that rated her certified as an alternative of extremely certified, once more, pointing to her expertise as a civil rights lawyer. Sure, it was intensive. However she had not practiced within the state of New York, the federal trial court docket there.

And, sure, there was a necessity for her to push again, as she did and as her supporters did, and say that she’s extremely certified for this place. She had many individuals within the civil rights motion assist her, federal judges earlier than whom she had argued. So she was capable of attain that appointment. However that concern adopted her onto the court docket the place, within the context of a intercourse discrimination case, a lawyer for a regulation agency that was being sued by girls regulation graduates, claiming discrimination in hiring and promotion, requested Motley to recuse herself from the case – so to step down from the case – saying that as a Black girl, she seemingly had skilled discrimination, and due to that, she couldn’t be honest to a litigant in a intercourse discrimination case.

Motley rejected that plea and wrote an opinion that continues to be related and has been cited time and time once more, saying that if background or expertise have been a foundation for a decide to step down from a case, then no decide may hear that intercourse discrimination case or any others. In different phrases, id alone isn’t sufficient to say {that a} decide is biased. And that call has been cited in situations the place judges have been requested to step down on the idea of their faith or their gender or their race or sexual orientation. And thus, it is one which I talk about fairly a bit in my guide.

MOSLEY: I need to return to that disappointment of not being appointed by Thurgood Marshall to be his successor as chief counsel and what that may have laid the groundwork for. Motley was on a shortlist to be nominated to sit down on the Supreme Court docket, and you’ve got stated that President Biden’s announcement that he’d nominate a Black girl to the Supreme Court docket – that might have occurred 50 years in the past. Did Motley ever specific anger or regrets about this or how she was handled throughout this period?

BROWN-NAGIN: So there are two elements to the story. First, Lyndon Johnson initially needed to nominate Constance Baker Motley to the U.S. Court docket of Appeals, to the 2nd Circuit. And there was large pushback in opposition to this concept. She stated, a girl was not needed on the 2nd Circuit and barely needed on the federal trial court docket, and he or she was dissatisfied in that. She says that Thurgood Marshall was dissatisfied that she didn’t obtain the appointment to the upper court docket. And but, she went onto the Federal District Court docket, and her title was reported within the media as being on shortlist for the Supreme Court docket.

It did not work out for various causes, together with as a result of being the civil rights queen was a double-edged sword. Individuals would say that she could not be honest to litigants in discrimination instances. There have been truly recusal motions made on this foundation. And so she was not proud of any of that. I might not say that she was offended. That wasn’t the best way she made her approach by the world, however she was dissatisfied. And but, she could be so happy, I am certain, on this second the place a listing of African American girls is on the market, and a number of other of them are eminently certified. And I am happy that we’re at this second. It has been a very long time coming.

MOSLEY: Tomiko Brown-Nagin, thanks a lot for this guide. And thanks for becoming a member of us.

BROWN-NAGIN: Thanks. It has been pleasant to speak to you about it.

GROSS: Tomiko Brown-Nagin is the writer of “Civil Rights Queen: Constance Baker Motley And The Battle For Equality.” She spoke with visitor interviewer Tonya Mosley, who’s a particular correspondent for the NPR present Right here & Now and host of the podcast Reality Be Informed.

After we take a brief break, John Powers will overview the brand new collection “Severance,” starring Adam Scott as an workplace employee who tries to separate his work life from his private life by present process a process to sever these two units of reminiscences. That is FRESH AIR.


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